I will add. One observation I made years ago, men carry a bias to believe that most men are evil.
It's not that men are evil, its that most men want to believe that they are a White Knight. More importantly they want to be perceived as a White Knight by their woman. In order to be perceived this way, the woman needs to be in constant need of saving.
Men want all other men to be evil, it makes us look good; it is purely instinctual, peacock-style, behaviour.
(McWhorter 2009): 13% of surveyed men admitted an attempted or completed rape. (Lisak & Miller 2002): just over 6% admitted to raping to attempting to rape.
McWhorter found 71% of the men who admitted an attempted or completed rape admitted more than one, Lisak & Miller 63%.
+Nila Jones Thank-you. Its good to put numbers to my suspicion. I will change my statement to a small proportion rather than very small, (based on an unrepresentative sample):
"incidents reported by newly enlisted male navy personnel" (McWhorter 2009) is not representative of the general population.
So in this study, in which I would expect to see relatively high reporting of villians, 87% of the sample came out clean.
Adjusting for "approximates legal definitions" (using the rates of recidivism) I would guess closer to 90.7%.
I suppose that is consistent with Lisak & Miler's report of 93.6% of men being good guys.
Nila Jones - 2016-02-06 12:49:38-0500 - Updated: 2016-02-06 12:49:58-0500
Another way to look at it is that maybe some young Navy recruits are too smart to admit to a crime. It seems absurd not to estimate that the actual % is higher than the % who self-report.
The idea that 'all other men are evil' is not instinctual. It is part of sexism, which teaches that men have to see each other as competitors, and thus the enemy.
Of course, sexism does feel instinctual, until you unpack it a bit further. What if women are not a prize to be won?
+Nila Jones "t seems absurd not to estimate that the actual % is higher"
not at all. there are two common reasons to confess to a crime you haven't committed: the most relevant would be bravado (it's why Mr.Big stings are no longer allowed in Canada), the other would be guilt (regardless of what happened memories change over the years).
"What if women are not a prize to be won?" ... but rather possess gifts that can be bestowed? At an instinctual level: same difference (reproductive capabilities)
Either way, humans like to look good to their peers, especially their close peers (like lovers). One of the ways men like to look good is as heroic figures, and heroism is predicated on both a villian and victim existing.
I think the second one would apply to written questionnaires, less likely the first.
What if it's true? What if 1 out of 8 men you know have raped someone, and 1 out of 10 have done it repeatedly? What if you, yourself, have let yourself believe something was ok with the other party when you knew in your heart it probably was not?
I think we need a much more nuanced discussion of consent in this culture. I think people of all genders push things, take advantage of other people's unwillingness to protest -- or the fact that they will not be believed. The FBI estimate, IIRC, is that 3% of rapes are reported. I think it is practical to talk about it as a common thing, and one not limited to men. And then, what shall we do about it?
As for education, i have met quite few young men on sex-discussion forums who honestly do not know what is ok/legal and what is not. They get an enormous amount of pressure to be the one who takes initiative, and who does not just accept a 'no' and go away. They want help.
I don't know that many sailors, so: "What if its true that 1 out of every 16 men I know are rapists?"
1. I don't personally know that many people any more. (really, I don't) 2. Then all of my fantasies have come true, and I am an epic hero to my wife.
The Wife has just confirmed point 2 (though I detect a hint of sarcasm in her laughter)
On the flip side...
What if its true that 94% of men are nice guys?
Probably means the safest place you can be is in a Night Club. Given the physical prowess of new military recruits, I would expect females to be even safer at Night Clubs with a lot of sailors.
An overstatement... so let's make it more acurate: it probably means that the world is a reasonably safe place; that most people won't get mugged, murdered, or raped; and that guy glancing shyly at you from across the room... yes he's sexually aroused, but he's that doesn't mean he's out of control.
It's not that men are evil, its that most men want to believe that they are a White Knight. More importantly they want to be perceived as a White Knight by their woman. In order to be perceived this way, the woman needs to be in constant need of saving.
Men want all other men to be evil, it makes us look good; it is purely instinctual, peacock-style, behaviour.
(Lisak & Miller 2002): just over 6% admitted to raping to attempting to rape.
McWhorter found 71% of the men who admitted an attempted or completed rape admitted more than one, Lisak & Miller 63%.
All stats as quoted here: https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
"incidents reported by newly enlisted male navy personnel" (McWhorter 2009) is not representative of the general population.
So in this study, in which I would expect to see relatively high reporting of villians, 87% of the sample came out clean.
Adjusting for "approximates legal definitions" (using the rates of recidivism) I would guess closer to 90.7%.
I suppose that is consistent with Lisak & Miler's report of 93.6% of men being good guys.
Of course, sexism does feel instinctual, until you unpack it a bit further. What if women are not a prize to be won?
not at all. there are two common reasons to confess to a crime you haven't committed: the most relevant would be bravado (it's why Mr.Big stings are no longer allowed in Canada), the other would be guilt (regardless of what happened memories change over the years).
Either way, humans like to look good to their peers, especially their close peers (like lovers). One of the ways men like to look good is as heroic figures, and heroism is predicated on both a villian and victim existing.
What if it's true? What if 1 out of 8 men you know have raped someone, and 1 out of 10 have done it repeatedly? What if you, yourself, have let yourself believe something was ok with the other party when you knew in your heart it probably was not?
I think we need a much more nuanced discussion of consent in this culture. I think people of all genders push things, take advantage of other people's unwillingness to protest -- or the fact that they will not be believed. The FBI estimate, IIRC, is that 3% of rapes are reported. I think it is practical to talk about it as a common thing, and one not limited to men. And then, what shall we do about it?
As for education, i have met quite few young men on sex-discussion forums who honestly do not know what is ok/legal and what is not. They get an enormous amount of pressure to be the one who takes initiative, and who does not just accept a 'no' and go away. They want help.
1. I don't personally know that many people any more. (really, I don't)
2. Then all of my fantasies have come true, and I am an epic hero to my wife.
The Wife has just confirmed point 2 (though I detect a hint of sarcasm in her laughter)
On the flip side...
What if its true that 94% of men are nice guys?
Probably means the safest place you can be is in a Night Club. Given the physical prowess of new military recruits, I would expect females to be even safer at Night Clubs with a lot of sailors.
An overstatement... so let's make it more acurate: it probably means that the world is a reasonably safe place; that most people won't get mugged, murdered, or raped; and that guy glancing shyly at you from across the room... yes he's sexually aroused, but he's that doesn't mean he's out of control.